Don't roll out the red carpet for them.
The recent excitement surrounding Thread's arrival on the Fediverse is concerning. To understand why this is not a good idea, consider their economic interest in harvesting data, their poor moderation, and their manipulations. Nothing good can come from their federation. Don't roll out the red carpet for them.
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206 comments
davidrevoy
📽️ Process:
📦 Sources: https://www.peppercarrot.com/en/viewer/misc__2023-12-14_Don-t-roll-out-the-red-carpet-for-them_by-David-Revoy.html
:cc: :ccby:
#Krita #MastoArt
149 ★Rasp@raru.re
True.
acrypthash@infosec.exchange
Reminds me of Death from Discworld. Beautiful art.
slothdude@mastodon.online
@acrypthash Death on Discworld was ultimately on people’s side, though. The same cannot be said for Meta.
ErikUden@mastodon.de
very powerful picture - we must not repeat the same mistakes as have been made before! Corporations could not care less about interoperability. All we do is lend them our built community and power, for which they will drop support the moment it suits their interests. Google Hangouts never needed to support XMPP, it was just a convenient tool in order for a decentralized and anticorporate alternative to messaging to be destroyed - when it no longer suited their needs XMPP support was dropped.
Don't let this happen to the Fediverse - corporate, ad-mania, and data harvesting corporations do not share our values and beliefs.
NMBA@mstdn.ca
I see some instances have blocked threads…I imagine they’re going to become popular if this goes through. I’ve paid for my instance, but am unlikely to stay if Zuck is give a key.
p@raru.re
my first thought when I hear someone works at facebook is.... ewww
norkoval@mastodon.gamedev.place
Too true...
Zergling_man@sacred.harpy.faith
If they want to harvest data, they'll do it with some random unassumingly-named node.
And they'll probably do it better than the MIT guy.
It's true that they'll provide approximately nothing of value, but at least for a glorious 24h we get to call the normiest normies niggers.
diondokter@fosstodon.org
Everything is public. They can already harvest the fedi data if they want.
f4grx@chaos.social
@diondokter I see you have nothing to hide?
diondokter@fosstodon.org
@f4grx I don't mean my personal data.
If they want to harvest fedi data, they already can. They don't have to federate with their own service to be able to harvest it. Just make a server with a random name and one user and federate that with everything. People would never know it'd be Meta behind it.
So 'oh no my data' isn't a good reason to defederate Threads
f4grx@chaos.social
@diondokter true, there are other, more important reasons.
fluffykittycat@furry.engineer
@diondokter not necessarily, some instances require an authenticated API to access anything. they also want to integrate into our social graphs so they can get leverage over us
Sh4d0w_H34rt@mstdn.social
a read of Threads ToS should be enough to make people worry.
snott@teabag.ninja
@Sh4d0w_H34rt as if people will read that.
We had a twitter influx of folks that all moved here with their friends and just carried on with their same old ways. They do not care what the platform is, they just care that their friends are here so they can all whinge about politics and climate change without doing anything tangible.
They care nought for any ToS, not even the one of the server they reside on in a lot of cases.
Sh4d0w_H34rt@mstdn.social
@snott the prevailing culture here is one of privacy. Will there be those who don't read the terms? Yes. Should we ignore the dangers of those terms and say nothing? HELL NO!
snott@teabag.ninja
@Sh4d0w_H34rt oh I whole heartedly agree!
Just outlining what I have seen.
BluesHarp@musicians.today
Zuckerturd...
romanumbral@mast.lat
I may not agree 100% with you on this, but the illustration is amazing :D
Deus@charcha.cc
Also, time to popularize #FediArt instead of #MastoArt. #FediArt is less tied with a 'product' 😌
Deus@charcha.cc
Also this "...last technical issues together with *Mastodon engineers*".
So developers and engineers working on other Fediverse software have been left out? 🖼️ original
grum999@masto.ai
It's a good things to see "big company" looking at open standard instead of closed one like BlueSky or X does
But looking stats on fediverse (https://fediverse.observer/stats) there's around ~13,000,000 users on ~22000servers: having the ~140,000,000 users from threads in fediverse will probably generate a huge disorder...
Also, probably most of threads users are ex-twitter users without habits of fediverse :ablobcattrash:
Most of servers admin will probably block thread :ablobcatcoffee:
jug@chaos.social
Definitely not an easy discussion. Meta as a company deserves all the criticism, and I do not trust them at all.
But … we always advocate for free and open services and protocols. Now that we get them, we say "no, not like that!" This is what we wanted, this is how we get users to interact with the fediverse, how we show them how easy it is to use privacy respecting services, this is how we get them to switch.
Instead we build walls, exclude them, make it difficult and unappealing.
mrFred489@fosstodon.org
@jug I completely agree. If we want the fediverse to be a real competition to the established social media, this is a good thing. Now it is actually viable for people to follow politics/celebrity gossip/friends/etc on threads, so they can remove or stop using threads.
A very good user friendly app might be a good hook to convince people to use the fediverse, as many people won’t switch exclusively for the privacy benefits.
f4grx@chaos.social
@mrFred489 @jug but do we want that? Perpetual growth is not always a good idea.
mrFred489@fosstodon.org
@jug @f4grx if we agree that Facebook is horrible, and that data harvesting can be used for bad things, it should be positive that we are getting a mechanism that over time could move people away from Facebook. Maybe it is not fantastic for existing small fediverse communities, but I also don’t think that it is completely negative. For the global society though, I think that it can be very positive in the long run.
f4grx@chaos.social
@mrFred489 @jug people can already move away from facebook. But they dont wznt to. Something like threads means that they will just be able to invade our spaces without leaving facebook.
f4grx@chaos.social
@mrFred489 @jug remember that the number of facebook users is much larger than the entire fediverse. We will be drowned.
f4grx@chaos.social
@mrFred489 @jug people that stay of facebook are lazy. I dont want to go to matrix analogies, but ...
mrFred489@fosstodon.org
@jug @f4grx I don’t think that people specifically don’t want to leave Facebook, they just don’t care enough about privacy to give up on all the stuff they follow on there. So this actually gives them an opportunity to leave without compromising on their other interests.
f4grx@chaos.social
@jug no, we want to exclude billionaires, and I am not sorry about that. I want a fediverse full of friends, not companies, and specifically not facebook.
WhyNotZoidberg@topspicy.social
@jug you think Fedi users care about free and open protocols? A majority of Maston users doesn't care.
Jeroen@mastodon.vlaanderen
@jug well said! And maybe the users will change their server once they see the alternative. (that's what I hope)
Sir_Osis_of_Liver@mastodon.social
@jug
Who's "we"? I'm not interested in having anyone here who didn't actively decide to come here.
If someone decides to leave here to follow celebrity gossip or specific brand marketing pap on Threads, more power to them.
I've already blocked threads.net, and will likely move to an instance that does the same going forward.
Scofisticated@socel.net
@jug I am riding this same reasoning. I dont want to be excluding of Threads *users*. However, Meta has been quite the bad actor. And I dont see a reason to trust them. Meta does not get a do-over cause they made a new platform. Which of course, following that reasoning would exclude the users.
I wonder if this is the same discussion with Tumblr's federation, who doesnt have nearly the same reputation. But, Meta's rep -is- something to consider.
fluffykittycat@furry.engineer
@jug imagine there's a mastodon instance that openly hosts nazis and has a child porn problem they can't deal with because they won't hire enough moderators. would you federate with them? why is it different when it's a big corporation? why would that make you more willing to deal with that crap? it's a breath of fresh air that we can have modern conveniences without dealing with corporate abuse and we can't we them take that from us
noyes@mastodon.online
@cyrilpedia
🖼️ originalArneBab@rollenspiel.social
that’s as beautiful as the background is ugly. Thank you for sharing!
flench04@vivaldi.net
Anyone can data farm off of ActivityPub. We should welcome Threads with open arms. #Threads #ActivityPUb #Welcome
Ertain@mast.linuxgamecast.com
I agree, David.
crossgolf_rebel@moppels.bar
@davidrevoy@framapiaf.org so true 😥
AndyGER@mastodon.social
Just login and see for yourself how bad the content is. This is Instagram only with more words.
This is yet another social network for content and not for discussion.
Mark Zuckerberg ist unable to re invent Social Media!
But it is able to kill #Twitter and #bluesky ...
heluecht@pirati.ca
@AndyGER I hope that Bluesky will survive. It's a nice place.
AndyGER@mastodon.social
@heluecht Is it? It's mainly a "look how many follower I have"-place. Technically underwhelming ...
heluecht@pirati.ca
@AndyGER at least the bubble I'm in there is nice. Many artists, space nerds and other weird people.
AndyGER@mastodon.social
@heluecht The #fediverse is cool ...
heluecht@pirati.ca
@AndyGER The Fediverse is my primary network. I'm using it now for nearly 15 years and I'm coding for Friendica for more than a decade. But I like to broaden my horizon. So I'm also using Bluesky.
AndyGER@mastodon.social
@heluecht That's okay. But I think bluesky will not remain ...
expert@attractive.space
nice drawing, I have to say. Nice picture. Exactly shows what you mean, your point.
myrmidon@mas.to
If I may ask, what kind of solutions do you have in mind?
davidrevoy
@myrmidon I have no idea. I'm just a user. I understand those who are already defederated with them (as my instance), I understand those who are 'waiting and seeing'. But I'm also deeply concerned about those who praise this situation and try to normalise it as something positive. I don't see anything positive in it and I just wanted to say it.
15 ★myrmidon@mas.to
It’s happening and once it’s on, it will be bigger than all of SocialWeb before them (at least an order of magnitude).
And people "there" are normal people, not fascists, rapists, murderers, etc.
So what does this ban mean exactly?
Let’s take to another level: You live in France, one of france telco HR policies are so bad that some of its employes are killing themselves citing work… again. Do you think you should ban calls/texts with anyone using their SIMs or landlines?
Zekovski@pouet.chapril.org
@myrmidon
The problem is not people. It is Meta.
(And I also believe growing the Fedi as much as possible is playing a game we already lost since it doesn't NEED to grow to survive.)
★myrmidon@mas.to
@Zekovski Google has a lot of issues too. Is your mail provider blocking all traffic from/to google mail services ?
Zekovski@pouet.chapril.org
@myrmidon
It's not about blocking Meta because they are bad.
Gmail is actually an example of what could happen :
It is now in a monopoly position. Hence they can and do change how email distribution work to their advantage.
Smaller actors are at a disadvantage because they have to keep up in order to be compatible, but they have less ressources. So people use gmail to have something "that works".
Zekovski@pouet.chapril.org
@myrmidon
The actual fear is this. Letting Meta take control of how the fediverse works.
It is explained in detail here if you're interested :
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
myrmidon@mas.to
@Zekovski Thank you. I’ll make time later today.
axnxcamr@mstdn.ca
@myrmidon
Of course we should!
If a company is so bad that it causes deaths (as Facebook is, see the Myanmar example), we should NOT accommodate their users. Those users should realize they are feeding an evil corporation and leave!
If not federating with META makes a 1/1000 of a percent of their users realize this and leave, that would be a great victory.
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr Nobody will leave threads because of this. Normal people will leave Mastodon instances that don’t federate and people with utter moral values will be isolated. What a great way to live. 😂
axnxcamr@mstdn.ca
@myrmidon
Refusing to give in to evil corporations, yeah, I'd say it's a great way to live.
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr yes. But forcing upon others is a the root of every totalitarism.
You’ve probably seen that some instances that preemptively banned are re-considering as their users are not happy.
Comm tolds are here to help us communicate with everybody we want, no decide with whom we can.
People won’t change instance, they will go to Threads.
axnxcamr@mstdn.ca
@myrmidon
I don't know, we'll see.
I still think letting Threads in will be the end of Fedi and AP. I'm not the first to think like that, won't be the last either.
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr It is the end of the experimentation and the start of SocialWeb Everybody will finally have an inbox.
I hope next step is Instagram joining.
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr I don’t like not owning the domain part (web, mail, socialweb, …) so do I have a number of instances of various kinds.
But for parents, siblings, children, etc that don’t have someone like me to run IT, we need something like threads like we needed something like gmail.
Mastodon is "hostile" to normal people. We’ve seen it during both waves for Twitter exodus.
axnxcamr@mstdn.ca
@myrmidon
"Forcing upon others" is a false argument. It's like saying Chinese restaurants are forcing their food upon their customers because they are not offering Mexican food.
You want Mexican, go to a Mexican restaurant.
You want to connect with Threads users? Create a Threads account.
What Fedi offers is an environment free of corporate shit, ads and whatnot. Federating with Threads goes against that.
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr SocialWeb protocols are like SMTP. Nothing else.
If people want to live isolated, good for them, I am glad. The rest of humanity will happily federate without them.
I’m sure some people refuse to exchange emails with people hosted by Google or Microsoft…. Does anyone care? no.
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr The company I was referring to is worse, people are killing themselves because of work conditions (a CEO has been convicted for a first "wave").
So what do we don’t, we ask our phone to bar us from calling/answering 40% cellphones, 70% landlines ?
axnxcamr@mstdn.ca
@myrmidon
We all have our own level of "worse".
"Facilitating genocides" would be my idea of worse.
YMMV
myrmidon@mas.to
@axnxcamr I don’t know the details but I guess they didn’t facilitate, they didn’t act to make it more difficult for people to organize on Fb (i guess that was on Fb).
If they did facilitate, MZ would be facing charges in La Hague.
It’s terrible but it’s legally different.
Quinn9282@mas.to
On the original announcement post by Zuck on the federation testing of Threads https://www.threads.net/@zuck/post/C0zXcQmxO77/ there are multiple replies of people complaining about the sheer number of porn bots, accounts spreading misinformation, conspiracy theories, propaganda, and other stuff like that on Threads. I can't verify any of that myself as I don't use Threads (or Instagram for that matter), but I definitely don't need to see those kinds of posts and accounts on my feed thank you very much.
markstoneman@zirk.us
An open web requires open protocols, so I'm okay with #Threads opting into the ActivityPub protocol, if it actually ever does. But it hasn't. Not yet. I'm also okay with certain servers being insular and excluding Threads. Kinda strange to do this before we know how Threads will approach the fediverse, but #socialmedia lives and breathes on this kind of thing. And the Fediverse is built to handle it too. @rwg
emberquill@tech.lgbt
@markstoneman @rwg At this point, it's no longer preemptive. While Threads hasn't started fully federating, its poor moderation alone is already a good reason to consider blocking it. Other fedi instances have been blocked for far less.
fluffykittycat@furry.engineer
@emberquill @markstoneman @rwg seriously, it's amazing we put up with cropo social media as long as we have. they manipulate people on purpose to be angry at one another. they have too few moderators to deal with the posts they recieve. the experience here is so refreshing because we almost forgot theist none of the crap was ever necessary nor helpful to achieve the essential purpose of the internet, which was to connect people. we're waking up form a nightmare and the companies who put us in that nightmare to profit off of us are scared and they want to put a lid on that/
markhurst@mastodon.social
You're right. And it's worth knowing what ELSE Facebook/Meta knowingly allows on its services: https://creativegood.com/blog/23/instagrams-unmentionable-problem.html
gomiboy75@mastodon.me.uk
We should be rightfully alarmed by this. We don't want to be integrated into the Zuckusphere
TranshumanBlues@mstdn.social
The instance I'm on pre-emptively defederated Threads months ago. 😂
LonM@vivaldi.net
On one hand, it's nice to see that the technology is being recognised as valuable, as a validation of AP-based social media.
On the other hand, it's horrifying to see that the technology is being recognised as valuable by big tech.
fluffykittycat@furry.engineer
@LonM it's valuable to us but an existential threat to them. this move from zuck has sinister motives and we're right to reject threads
thomy2000@social.linux.pizza
I'm confused by the data harvesting argument. Isn't the fediverse already accessible to anyone? Why would it help them to federate? I do however get the other concerns. I hope server admins will be 'trigger happy' enough when things go south. At least the power is in the hands of many.
ploum@mamot.fr
: looks like I will need to write a post to go with that new picture like I did with
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
davidrevoy
@ploum Please do.
Many people seem to see this Threads federation test as a positive thing, or something to celebrate and I still have no idea why they do.
15 ★Words missing here.
mrFred489@fosstodon.org
@ploum Can you explain which negative consequences you see from this? All the data they will get is public, so they could get it anyways. I don’t think that they can really manipulate the users of the fediverse through activity pub. Moderation may be worse, but there are laws enforcing some moderation, so it can’t be completely bad. If it really is, activity pub could possibly be extended to allow moderation of other instances instead of complete blocks.
adiz@soc0.outrnat.nl
@mrFred489@fosstodon.org
activity pub could possibly be extended to allow moderation of other instances instead of complete blocksWhat do you mean by this?Can you explain which negative consequences you see from this? All the data they will get is public, so they could get it anyways.Would be more difficult for them to data-mine from the outside in vs. from the inside. Additionally, I believe a big fear is that Meta will use their position and dominance to assert themselves as a chief stakeholder in the AP spec and exploit their power to push unilateral changes similar to what Google does contemporaneously with web standards. @ploum@mamot.fr @davidrevoy@framapiaf.orgmrFred489@fosstodon.org
@ploum @adiz Individual instances could block individual users, instead of the entirety of threads. I get that this can be very overwhelming, given that there are so many users, so maybe the moderation issue is difficult. I think that moderation will become a bigger issue anyways though, as the fediverse grows.
Webscraping is super easy, or they could create an instance that isn’t threads to get all data anyways, data mining is irrelevant.
mrFred489@fosstodon.org
@ploum @adiz I agree that they may try to exploit their power to change the AP spec, but I think that it has a quite strong foundation. It is open source, an FB isn’t involved yet as far as I am aware. I believe that the fediverse and ap spec can survive and overcome this issue.
lispi314@udongein.xyz
@ploum They never did kill it and it remains one of the main two chat protocols used on Tor and I2P.
And do I really want to talk to people who trust or even approve of corposcum?
fluffykittycat@furry.engineer
@ploum thank you for writing this. I'm linking it around to my friends
Chris@mastodon.cosmicnation.co
We've already blocked their servers.
maxmm77@toot.community
Harvesting data: if someone’s toots are public Meta (& others) can anyway right? & if someone is not on Threads Meta can’t get more than what is posted
Poor moderation: join an instance that full blocks Threads then. That’s a selling point of the Fediverse
Manipulations: not on their service so what can they manipulate?
Nothing good from their federation: except being able to interact with the millions on Threads
Don’t get me wrong, I hate Meta but fearmongering isn’t going to help
davidrevoy
@maxmm77 Ok, good points, but I also see this side: harvesting data, on their side they can measure behavior of their audience who interacts with our post (how long a follower scroll/read my post, interact with it). And nudge them with timeline manipulation (sorting the post inside a specific context). Poor moderation is already a thing ( I see a user complaining about too many porn bots on https://www.threads.net/@zuck/post/C0zXcQmxO77/ ).
5 ★Interacting with millions on Threads: OK, this is a good thing. 1/2
davidrevoy
@maxmm77 2/2 About manipulation, they are also known for the "pay to win" (politics, brands, etc... pay to get more visibility). This will probably have a similar effect on user of the fediverse. Thinking the network is cheated.
3 ★maxmm77@toot.community
Hey thanks for your response! You're right on harvesting Threads user interactions with Mastodon posts, & I'm sure their timelines will be manipulated. I hope the interaction allows Threads users to realize they don't need Meta messing with their feeds.
★Poor moderation is a thing on Mastodon as well. I've seen all kinds of porn bots in random hashtags they don't belong in. The beauty is the option to de-federate is there & I hope that can also be a way to combat Meta "paying to win”
davidrevoy
@maxmm77 Thank you and I agree with the defederation beauty.
5 ★Now I can also see another positive argument for this federation by the way thanks to your message: showing to their huge audience they can move to a free/libre alternative without loosing their contacts or content. That's indeed a thing to consider.
degoedel@bdx.town
@maxmm77 In my opinion, one of the most problematic things Meta could do is to influence the evolution of the Activity pub protocol once they have weight in the fediverse to suit their commercial and political goals.
davidrevoy
@degoedel @maxmm77 That's right Degoedel, they can affect even the philosophy and usage of it (eg. suddently a majority of user with no Alt/image description, or their dominant position makes every instance without 'quote reply' outdated compare to their users).
★maxmm77@toot.community
@degoedel ahhh yeah influencing AP isn’t something I had thought of. The Threads brand of AP is certainly going to differ from Mastodon (even their hashtags are already different) and I had previously seen that in a positive light (freedom of choice) but yes with an overwhelming majority it could be an issue
★morganedesiv@mastodon.top
@maxmm77 If Threads actually allows migration. I wouldn't be surprised if they tweak it so that leaving Threads means starting all over again instead of keeping your contact/followers.
davidrevoy
@morganedesiv @maxmm77 Yes, that's a fair point. I know the EU law for interoperability is for somewhere soon within the decade; and I wouldn't be surprise if this move toward the Fediverse is a test to avoid a big bill in the horizon. I also don't know if this future law will constrain them to also propose a system to move followers and profile to another server. For sure, they are expert in Deceptive Designs to make a form feels and looks difficult, a burden and risky for their users.
3 ★Jeroen@mastodon.vlaanderen
@morganedesiv @maxmm77
Then again, I suspect them for only opening certain options to EU citizens.
Other people might have to start again on a different server.
The #dsa starts to work on 1st of januari 2024 for big companies and will gradually expand to smaller ones. Threats isn't part of it yet, meaning that they'll have 4 months to comply once the EU put them on their list.
savedgez@mastodon.social
@morganedesiv @maxmm77 You have a good point! I'm sure Threads will not let your data out in a form that you could import into other instances.
★Though they are legally required to hand out all your data if you request it from them
jcrabapple@dmv.community
@maxmm77 I hate to break it to you but there are porn bots on Mastodon. Scroll through the federated timeline. Admins will moderate those Threads accounts just like we do when they're Mastodon accounts. There's also hate speech, racism, misinformation, etc here and we moderate that too.
If we need to create new tools to make it easier we will. We have some of the smartest people on the Internet on the fediverse. This place adapts.
CoolBlenderKitten@mastodon.art
@jcrabapple @maxmm77
Well let's hope so, I'd hate to lose it to corporate greed
jcrabapple@dmv.community
@CoolBlenderKitten @maxmm77 we won't lose anything
pascaline@mastodon.nl
@jcrabapple
Thanks for your work and dedication ❤️
@maxmm77
JonChevreau@mstdn.ca
@jcrabapple @maxmm77 I’ve never seen a porn bot in the year I’ve been on Mastodon. I see and block them every day on Threads. There seems to be no centralized effort to ban them.
GreatBigTable@mastodon.social
I understand the concern, but there is nothing in the protocol that allows them to harvest data according to the main Mastodon developer. Even displaying images from an Thread user won't give the IP back to Meta as images are copied and cached from instance servers.
It is a post work reading. It alleviated some of my concerns at least.
Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@ariane I have a hard time understanding all this angst about Threads, besides a gross misunderstanding of how the Fediverse works. The misunderstanding is quite acceptable for an artist or most of the users, far less so for some mastodon admins who decided to block Threads.
I'm therefore inviting anyone thinking Threads is dangerous to at least read Mastodon's creator thoughs about it (and dispel some weird beliefs on the way) :
https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/07/what-to-know-about-threads/
davidrevoy
@Leuenberg @ariane Désolé de ne pas pouvoir comprendre, je ne suis en effet qu'un artiste et c'est chose normale. /s
2 ★Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@ariane Sorry about that, I initially posted in French out of habit.
ilja@ilja.space
@Leuenberg the artist you are talking to is french, so you posting in french isn't the problem. i'm pretty sure the problem is your apparent denigrating idea that someone doesn't understand tech just because they are an artist.
lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
@Leuenberg @ariane The way the Fediverse works on a technical level doesn't really matters, except for the fact that posts are sent very widely by default and how you'd end up with a all-or-nothing communication with Meta.
The way Meta makes money via harvesting data and people manipulation on the other hand is important, the fact that Meta is proprietary is also important because it means they can do extensions without others being easily able to follow or solve interoperability issues.
Gargron here is playing a dangerous game and is trying to lessen the harm Meta can do. ★
Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@lanodan @ariane Meta CANNOT harvest data on the Fediverse, this need at least to be understood. It is this myth and some others that Gargron is trying to dispel. Honestly explaining what Meta can and can't do on the Fediverse technically is not lessening the harm Meta could do but letting people make informed choice (as long as their admins allow them to).
davidrevoy
@Leuenberg @lanodan @ariane Do you think they'll not harvest data about what a Threads user is watching on remote instances? What content they visit, how much time they spend on it? If it triggered a compulsive buy, or writing a post? Do you think Meta will not deboost your post sent from the Fediverse on Threads, and boost artificially the brands, celebreties and politics they want, or just local users? To you think they'll do not nudge any of their users to accomplish things?
2 ★Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@lanodan @ariane What Meta does to Thread users (a lot of invasive stuff) is irrelevant to what we do on the Fediverse, everything you're describing is happening on the Threads App, no matter if Threads is on the Fediverse or not.
On the opposite, if I'm subscribing to a Thread user, Meta cannot do anything about my activity : because I'm not using their App they CANNOT advertise stuff to me and they CANNOT get my personnal data (only my server has my email, IP address, etc.)
duponin@udongein.xyz
@Leuenberg @lanodan @ariane
> Meta CANNOT harvest data on the Fediverse
awww that’s so sweet and naive
they totally can, activitypub federation is basically a replication platform ★
Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@duponin @lanodan @ariane Gorgron disagrees with you here, guess who's right ? Why would Meta get more power than any other application on the fediverse ? Why would your server suddenly disclose to Meta what it is not disclosing anyway to the other servers ?
duponin@udongein.xyz
@Leuenberg @lanodan @ariane because you don’t understand how federation mechanics work lmfao
nice try on your authority argument fallacy btw
Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@duponin @lanodan @ariane I think I understand enough to know that Meta is certainly not an issue here. But then please explain how suddenly Meta would be able to harvest your personnal data from your server ? I'm not aware of any way ActivityPub would allow you to get any information about the poster beside the thing he is posting (which is public anyway).
lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
@Leuenberg @duponin @ariane You get everything from users except email/IP/password, which is nearly useless data for the purposes of AdTech when you can get better information such as your social graph, which they get.
And personal data doesn't magically becomes detached from a person when it becomes public (which is actually not so public when it comes to profiles only visible via authenticated-fetches).
Leuenberg@cyberplace.social
@lanodan @ariane @duponin Agreed, but then it's not a concern with Meta, technically they could retrieve all the public data they want with an accounts on big instance and start playing with the APIs.
I suspect that many people freaking out about Meta have no idea of the big privacy issues intrinsic to ActivityPub, at least I know that Meta do not care about my activity since they can't monetize it. I'm not so confident about those rogue or badly maintained servers.
lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
@Leuenberg @ariane @duponin The thing which is different from Threads vs. other servers is that we can be reasonably sure right from the start that they're going to abuse the data.
And we know ActivityPub sucks about data privacy and it could do better, but we also know that enforcing data privacy via technology alone doesn't really works because otherwise you'd end up a hermit.
Never had a friend tell someone else about your secrets? Or did something a bit embarrassing in public? (Or that you'd regret years/decades later)
Meta works like a creep who would gather information about people at their expanse.
subtype@akko.hollow.capital
Nice touch that this time it's only the Mastodon mascot here 🙃
heluecht@pirati.ca
I will watch the situation and will react if needed. Means: when my users are getting harassed from Threads people, then I will cut the connection.
davidrevoy
@heluecht The "wait and see" position seems reasonable to me. I also like the preventive defederation. Sure, it's a new situation and we'll all learn from it.
aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
i defederated them ages ago, i dont want to see facebook-mom posts anyway.
aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
good reasons to avoid anything facebook https://eldritch.cafe/@UnePorte/111579109000257920
thejacenallen@mastodon.social
valid criticism and yet the people in charge act as if it’s impossible to have a moral standard.
thesuperpapagai@fosstodon.org
If a decentralized social media platform is so fragile that it can be completely destroyed by the presence of one company, it meets the idea of the fediverse was never that viable to begin with.
goku12@fosstodon.org
It isn't as if there's no precedence. XMPP (then called Jabber) was a promising open and federated chat protocol that fell victim to the double whammy by FB and the BigG.
ericjmorey@qoto.org
Meta can easily harvest ActivityPub federated data without implementing ActivityPub federation in Threads.
The biggest concern is overwhelming moderators in no small part due to the lack of knowledge, planning, and experience one should expect of amateur administrators and moderators to have in dealing with moderation concerns when there’s a sudden 3x (or higher) order of magnitude increase in federated accounts.
That and the inevitability of a huge increase in ads and sponsored and commercially driven content.
RoyAhoi@nrw.social
★Coole Zeichnung
taylan@pl.tkammer.de
Can they not already harvest the data via web scraping or just creating accounts on fedi?
I think the only proper solution to that sort of problem is good privacy laws, like the GDPR.
Or, for fedi specifically: Setting one's account to private and only approving of trusted followers, I guess.
bluebbberry@mastodon.social
Its coming! https://fungiverse.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/breath-taker-the-meta-myzel/
carrotcypher@fosstodon.org
Love the artwork (as usual!) and agree with your concerns. Personally I'm all for interoperabiltiy, open standards, protocols, and source regardless of who uses them, but the discussions are still important and so is vigilience.
★bluebbberry@mastodon.social
I think it was to be expected. It will certainly be tough but the open web will go out of it stronger than before
davidrevoy
@bluebbberry Yes, I agree that this is a new situation and we're all going to learn from it.
★bluebbberry@mastodon.social
Beautiful art by the way. Message is a bit on the nose but I like the style.
shaun@sunshine.town
💯️ Thank you for making and posting this. ❤️
Some time ago, someone tooted about how Threads joining the Fediverse isn't something to celebrate, I can't find the tool, but I agree with that.
★cranky_engineer@mastodon.social
The hysteria over this is truly confounding. Threads will not be able to harvest your data once federated. Being able to follow someone without the need to subscribe to the same platform/ rules they use/ follow is expressly the value of a federated network for me…
eduardoink@mast.lat
Oye, estoy completamente de acuerdo, nada de nada
helpstopcapitalism@mastodon.social
https://www.change.org/p/make-mastodon-social-and-mastodon-online-defederate-from-threads
aeischeid@mastodon.social
well said, and great illustration!
★nunux@mastodon.social
Un artiste merveilleux capable, sous un trait humouristique, de mêlé open source, informatique, social et bienveillance, le tout avec beauté, et ouverture.
Bravo, et merci.
Ray_Of_Sunlight@mastodon.social
Man, nothing good comes from threads
RyunoKi@layer8.space
Related https://mamot.fr/@ploum/111579955055590160
davidrevoy
@RyunoKi Oh yes, I'm eager to read the a potential next one: https://mamot.fr/@ploum/111579927458776482
rival@mastodon.social
Amazing!
★lautre@mastouille.fr
Quelles sont les méthodes pour réaliser ces vidéos ?
Des captures d'écran automatiques et régulières tout en travaillant ? Depuis une fenêtre avec la prévisualisation du travail en cours pour éviter la présence du pointeur?
davidrevoy
@lautre Bonjour, alors c'est beaucoup plus simple, c'est intégré à Krita https://docs.krita.org/en/reference_manual/dockers/recorder_docker.html , il y a qu'a mettre "record" et a la fin "export" et ça fait tout. Techniquement, ça mets a intervalle sur le disque une projection du canvas en JPG, et a la fin ça utilise FFmpeg en fond pour monter la video avec le petit fondu du début. Le fichier a été pensé pour être direct optimisé pour les médias socciaux. C'est facile 🙂
3 ★Susan_Larson_TN@mastodon.online
I can condemn it in 3 words Libs of TikTok.
OchotonidKnight@meemu.org
Excitement? Where? Everywhere around me everybody's saying "nope" and/or what you're saying.
msbellows@c.im
I'm no expert, but my Spidey Sense tells me that letting Meta/Facebook into the fediverse is like letting Russia into NATO. I can't imagine either of them having any other motivation than to destroy the free community they're joining.
cherold@zirk.us
@msbellows What for? The Fediverse is super fringe - so many people running away from Twitter run right past Mastodon. What aspect of the Fediverse is enough of a threat for Meta to bother crushing?
msbellows@c.im
@cherold Fair. Maybe because they (unlike most users) understand that fedi actually is the best system, and that if everyone realized that and used it correctly the oligarchs would lose all their wealth and power forever*?
*Also applies to democracy
cherold@zirk.us
@msbellows Well, if they believe people choose the best system then they've got a more optimistic view of people than I do. 😕
milkman76@med-mastodon.com
this is all so weird. The primary reason most of us came here, at least between 2018-2022ish, was to specifically GET AWAY FROM facebook, twitter, and other social media systems. Suddenly, instance admins are bragging about connecting us to that, and acting like they have amnesia about the entire affair.
No thanks. I will actively work to make sure I block all accounts and networks connected to this.
Athesis@ratatöskr.de
XMPP is the best example. Google had it, Facebook had it, Yahoo had it, all were compatible with each other and others ... Now all is just a walled garden.
MandyMay@vmst.io
It is easy to block threads.net, as easy as it was for me to block Mastodon.social.
realcaseyrollins@social.freetalklive.com
#Threads joining the #Fediverse doesn't give them access to data they couldn't harvest through other means.
CoolBlenderKitten@mastodon.art
I could not agree more
tyberry@tyloves.coffee
It's crazy how many people on the 'verse are excited for threads like threads isn't the exact opposite of what Fediverse was invented for.
★tmk@social.lugal.io
I'm tired of these adsellers trying to co-opt online communities for their own benefit. They suck the joy and soul out of everything they touch. It'll always look nice at first, until it inevitably isn't. ★
Tertle950@mastodon.social
https://mastodon.social/@Tertle950/111581350854829744
tillmanreuter@ecoevo.social
can somebody link me to a thread on here explaining what is happening?
periodically_pedantic@mstdn.ca
I don't think that threads needs to federate in order to harvest mastodon data. They can use the public mastodon APIs to do it.
And there are plenty of federated mastodon servers with spotty moderation.
I don't like meta, but defederation will hurt users, not the company
davidrevoy
@periodically_pedantic The public Mastodon API is limited: in number of replies under a thread and by numbers of calls. It's probably less easy than what you think to scrap data here. Once federated, you receive a lot more data. You also can analyse the type of data they prefer: behavior.How much you spent time on what, how you interact when you put this post next to this one, or between this one. The hours, what made you pay for something, what trigger you or change your mind about something.
2 ★periodically_pedantic@mstdn.ca
I guess I need to dig into the activitypub spec, but don't they just need to implement an activitypub server to listen for mastodon activity?
That'd give them everything they'd get if they federated. The only time they'd get more is if you directly interact with Threads content.
davidrevoy
@periodically_pedantic I think you are right: making a secret activity pub server could work to try to scrap the fediverse at the condition of being federated with the targets.
But maybe a server + a bot like that would be quickly visible on the log of small instances and be quickly flagged as a scrapper bot (just because it takes ressources for nothing).
I'll probably search Fediblock discussions to see if such a bot/server already was seen and blocked for this specific reason.
3 ★periodically_pedantic@mstdn.ca
here my ignorance of activitypub specifics is showing. I always imagine it kinda like pubsub.
The other server doesn't need to be a mastodon server, so does it even need a bot/user?
How do servers filter the content they subscribe to?
davidrevoy
@periodically_pedantic That's true, Pleroma, Peertube, Misskey etc... can still access a lot. So the access is not Mastodon specific.
★I'm not sure if they can list all the replies under a post; or they have to "Open Original" to see that. With an API key, I can list all the comments dynamically on my blog : https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1009/dont-roll-out-the-red-carpet-for-them/show#comments ( cached for 1h to be friendly with the API of my instance).
ledoian@pleroma.ledoian.cz
@periodically_pedantic > I’m not sure if they can list all the replies under a post
At least for me as the user, I don’t automatically see all responses; to me it seems like I see anything that someone I follow interacted with (and that was presumably the reason it hit my instance). But I also don’t know much about AP, so showing all comments/interactions might be actually possible (maybe it is just demanding on resources, so Pleroma does not do that by default?)
Xen4n@social.net.ua
@periodically_pedantic FYI for now Pleroma can't interact with federated threads.net accounts. Maybe it's limitation by API that threads use, or their direct selection of Mastodon for now. Who knows) ★
tshirtman@mas.to
i agree with the point about moderation, but i find the point about data harvesting misleading, all the data on the fediverse is free for anyone to harvest, federating with meta won't change that.
For moderation, each servers have their policy, we know how to handle that, some server can be cautious about it, others just won't give it a chance — understandably —, and others will be pretty open, we'll see how it goes.
brawnybunkbedbuddy@mastodon.world
excitement? people seems to be really concerned
tinydoctor@mstdn.social
Red carpet? I'm rolling out the kaltrops.
sbb@c.im
Your artwork is great! How about one from Aesop's fables, featuring the lion taking his "lion's share"?
https://read.gov/aesop/141.html
Those who don't see any problem with Threads joining the Fediverse apparently seem to think that functioning-by-goodwill internet Federations grow on trees, and they aren't any sort of considerable loss if sidelined and subverted by the lions who know everything there is to know about taking their "lion's share".
★davidrevoy
@sbb Good one (Aesop). I already illustrated Aesop tale ( https://www.peppercarrot.com/en/viewer/misc__2022-11-07_Aesop-Mini-comic_by-David-Revoy.html ) I'll keep a bookmark of this one.
5 ★Aleggra@mstdn.party
Forgot about the harvesting. Plus, Zuckerberg doesn’t have the slightest compunction when it comes to stealing personal data which he can look up thru our usernames & ip’s.
Alligator@fosstodon.org
I see this as equivalent to Microsoft's "embrace" of open source. It is not ever to be trusted as sincere. The best outcome to be hoped for is that they end up making it as bad as them.
Orca@nya.one
@davidrevoy@framapiaf.org Though considering data harvesting, many fediverse instance doesn't have many protections against it at all, even without federation…… 🤔
thilo@maier.social
I don’t think the interoperability in itself is cause for concern.
People signing up to #threads as their first Mastodon server seems more of a threat.
But I will observe with an open minded curiosity.
LiveByReason@universeodon.com
The Fediverse is essentially public. . . would they not be able to harvest data regardless of whether they did or did not federate?
Also, regarding, "poor moderation and manipulations", that's literally a risk with *every instance*.
You either do want distributed, decentralized social networking, it seems to me, or you do not. It may end up being the case that most instances end up blocking threads, if it ends up too terrible.
But for the most part, people can choose who they follow and don't follow, and can block people they find objectionable.
All the risks cited, are risks for every possible instance in a federated system. What is so special about Threads?
cardboard@wobbl.xyz
when big companies show interest in a small thing, that usually means the end times are near for tight knit niche communities as more people flood into the place.
MMusselwhite@chillpeep.zone
For me - I've been dreading this since it was announced it was on the tables when Threads first became a thing about a year ago!
Even ignoring Meta's terrible history with user data and how they have people engage in a negative way on their platforms: I'm worried about them turning this platform into commercial hellscape with Ads left, right and center! I fear Threads integration will end what I loved about Mastodon, and indeed the Fediverse, so much! :whyMelt:
★IgorRock@social.cologne
Let me put it this way: Yes, I care about my privacy, that's why I'm on Mastodon.
No, most other people don't care about this, and cannot be bothered to do so (their choice).
ActivityPub is a protocol like SMTP, which just means that everybody can implement a service with it, which then can interact with other services using the same protocol.
I myself am looking forward to finally be able to chat with those other people again WITHOUT HAVING TO JOIN THAT COMMERCIAL PLATFORM MYSELF.
IgorRock@social.cologne
PS: And EVERYTHING you publish on Mastodon (or the Fediverse as such) is widely available for anybody who is interested to analyze it already, so that's a stupid argument, sorry.
The important thing is that when I'm using Mastodon to chat with somebody on Threads, Meta doesn't get *any more data* than they would be able to get by just following me themselves (e.g. via RSS).
Which means that Meta won't get my location data, my real name (if I don't want to), or any other personal data
davidrevoy
@IgorRock Please no cap. Cap I read them as yelling. 😅
2 ★Good you talk about SMTP: are you informed about how Gmail, right now −because of getting majority of emails− is doing the law on the world of email? (eg. https://thedaily.case.edu/upcoming-gmail-changes-may-impact-email-delivery/ ).
Don't you think Meta becoming a major player in the Fedi world could push some 'security check', complexify the standard until no little project could follow, this type of things? Don't you see the dependency in case they takes it all as Gmail did?
IgorRock@social.cologne
Well, as long as there is no "bold font" or anything in Mastodon, the only way to emphasize the important part is - sadly - upper case.
★As such, on platforms which don't support bold or italic fonts, I myself don't equal upper case text with yelling, as I do on platforms which have those.
Maybe this is something which should be improved in Mastodon (it would be easy to use some wiki-like syntax to do so, to be honest, clients just would have to support it, no protocol change needed).
davidrevoy
@IgorRock I think I read somewhere some instances and versions supports Markdown basic feature. Let's test (I always was curious 🙂 ):
*test*
**test**
_test_
~~test~~
~test~
> quote
## Title
[edit: Ok, edit after I saw the result: it doesn't work on my side 😅 Good to know ]
BetaRays@p.changeme.fr.eu.org
@IgorRock Instances that do support them may create posts with markup being invisible to other instances: for example, this shows as bold on my instance: bold.
Some apps (such as FediLab) may try to render markup when markdown-like syntax is used in a plain text post. In any case, putting text in asterisks or similar is a good enough way to emphasize text when markup isn’t available.
★davidrevoy
@BetaRays @IgorRock Thanks for the info! Yes, I can see the bold text in your message.
BetaRays@p.changeme.fr.eu.org
@IgorRock Okay, maybe parts of it work then, but I remember quotes not working on other instances.
Let me try more of this: italic, bold, strikethrough.
This is a quote.
This is an h1Some text
This is an h2Both of those headers don’t seem to display on my preview.
★davidrevoy
@BetaRays @IgorRock Oh nice about all the styles available. 😍 It works well. I can understand why the header/title don't work: a big font like that could really mess the timeline.
BetaRays@p.changeme.fr.eu.org
My software also supports
(This post also serves as a test for lists and links.)
★IgorRock@social.cologne
@BetaRays While not a single of them works on my smartphone (Mastodon app, there's nothing there, just the text "italic, bold, strikethrough), some seem to work when using the web interface of my instance (the above three and the "quote" work).
But I don't even know how to create any of them in either. ☹️
★IgorRock@social.cologne
@BetaRays PS: And since nothing shows up in the app (like it would with wiki syntax, like "*bold*"), this is not really as useful as such. 🙄
BetaRays@p.changeme.fr.eu.org
@IgorRock This not working in some apps may be a good enough reason to avoid using this if the meaning can’t be deduced with stripped markup. I don’t think plain Mastodon allows you to use markup at all, but some forks do. In any case, using *asterisks* as a way to mark emphasis is common enough to be understood if you only have access to plain text.
IgorRock@social.cologne
@BetaRays It works well for a single word or two, but with a longer part of a sentence? Not really. 😕
breizh@pleroma.breizh.pm
@IgorRock
test
test
test
test
quote
Title
Almost any other micro-blogging software of the Fediverse support it. The closest to Mastodon that support it is GlitchSoc, as far as I know.
At least now Mastodon is showing it in this case, instead of stripping anything like it was doing until recently.
★IgorRock@social.cologne
And about the Gmail issue: this only means that all people who need to be in contact with others will leave that platform in droves (latest when they missed an important mail from somebody else), sorry.
At least those companies using it now most probably will, because they cannot risk to miss mails from customers... I think Google is shooting themselves in the foot with this, as they are doing with their "no adblockers anymore" changes to Chrome.
RyunoKi@layer8.space
Oh, the king arrived, huh?
How do you treat kings again in France? 🤔
🤡
★davidrevoy
@RyunoKi 🤣
★jfparis@rouge.eu.org
Very reasonable.
How can I see the thread federation (before I block it ?)
ruurd@mastodon.nl
@feditips
yeah. there goes the neighbourhood.
jerry@matrix.rocks
@davidrevoy@framapiaf.org Don't worry... Thread's are as little welcome on @matrix.rokcs as any insecure CloudFlare controlled fediverse servers...
The fediverse is a collection of community-owned, ad-free, decentralized, and privacy-centric social networks.source: https://docs.matrix.rocks/reposting.html#fediverse & Social networking that's not for sale.
Source: https://joinmastodon.org/
I don't see any #bigTech invitations here...
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